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  #41  
Old 03-14-2019, 11:27 AM
clemsson clemsson is online now
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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Originally Posted by catdaddy2402 View Post
Repeated close losses over multiple years with multiple personnel groupings is exactly the same thing. That's not a player not making a play problem, or a refs screwing us problem, that's a program mentality problem just the same as what we had under Bowden.
The difference is the football program had the history and fan support (potential) to do something about it. Our basketball has actually been worse than we are right now for much of the past 100 years. We won 19 games this year and were very competitive in most of the losses. That is a huge step up from our historical average.

If you want to replace CBB then go ahead and do but you better have someone in the bag who is willing to accept the job before CBB is let go. You also need to open the wallet to the tune of ~ $3MM per year as proven coaches and staffs don't come cheap.

A floundering coaching search with multiple rejections just to end up with someone likely not as good as the current coach is not a pleasant experience
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  #42  
Old 03-14-2019, 11:42 AM
AllOrange67 AllOrange67 is online now
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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Originally Posted by Gvegastiger49 View Post
Maybe when you have a lot of youth and inexperience, but from a senior laden team I expect more than just tanking bc you have some bad calls go against you.
I know I have said this before many times, but somehow we keep outdoing ourselves in the metric of "this is the epitome of Brownell basketball". Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. At some point some of you diehard supporters have to ask yourselves is this really working? Is this senior laden team full of guys Brownell recruited and coached for 4 years the best we can expect from him?

Remember even seniors are only 20-21 years old. How frustrated did you get with the terrible officiating? Now imagine if you are on the court and 21 yrs old (or less) They're human. It effected them. Yes you still have to perform, but the officiating was a major contributing factor to their performance IMO
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  #43  
Old 03-14-2019, 11:42 AM
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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Originally Posted by LawStudent View Post
What he has done is in line with history. He took the team to the second best finish in program history last year. I believe his ACC winning percentage is the highest for any Clemson coach.

In line with ancient history maybe. Since the NCAA tournament expanded beyond the conference champion format in 1975 the only coaches with fewer NCAA tournament experiences than Brownell are Bill Foster and Larry Shyatt, and Foster was dealing with just a 32 team NCAA field.
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  #44  
Old 03-14-2019, 12:43 PM
Judge Keller Judge Keller is online now
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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Originally Posted by clemsson View Post
The difference is the football program had the history and fan support (potential) to do something about it. Our basketball has actually been worse than we are right now for much of the past 100 years. We won 19 games this year and were very competitive in most of the losses. That is a huge step up from our historical average.

If you want to replace CBB then go ahead and do but you better have someone in the bag who is willing to accept the job before CBB is let go. You also need to open the wallet to the tune of ~ $3MM per year as proven coaches and staffs don't come cheap.

A floundering coaching search with multiple rejections just to end up with someone likely not as good as the current coach is not a pleasant experience

Great post! I agree 100%.
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  #45  
Old 03-14-2019, 01:29 PM
BloodTiger BloodTiger is offline
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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What he has done is in line with history. He took the team to the second best finish in program history last year. I believe his ACC winning percentage is the highest for any Clemson coach.
Most fans want better than our mediocre basketball history. Why is this so hard to understand for you apologists? The results over the last nine years are NOT good enough. Time to let someone else try.
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  #46  
Old 03-14-2019, 01:39 PM
LawStudent LawStudent is offline
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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Most fans want better than our mediocre basketball history. Why is this so hard to understand for you apologists? The results over the last nine years are NOT good enough. Time to let someone else try.

Then the AD has to commit like it did for football. Until that happens, Clemson basketball has overachieved with BB. Bottom 1/3 of expenditures, top 1/2 of conference. Give BB the resources that Dabo does. Until that happens, you cannot blame BB.
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  #47  
Old 03-14-2019, 01:53 PM
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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Originally Posted by clemsson View Post
The difference is the football program had the history and fan support (potential) to do something about it. Our basketball has actually been worse than we are right now for much of the past 100 years. We won 19 games this year and were very competitive in most of the losses. That is a huge step up from our historical average.

If you want to replace CBB then go ahead and do but you better have someone in the bag who is willing to accept the job before CBB is let go. You also need to open the wallet to the tune of ~ $3MM per year as proven coaches and staffs don't come cheap.

A floundering coaching search with multiple rejections just to end up with someone likely not as good as the current coach is not a pleasant experience



So your answer is to keep a coach who has two NCAA appearances in nine years, with the upcoming tenth year expected to be a huge drop off from this failed to meet expectations year, and you expect the fan support to get better?




Trying to compare the level of fan support for football and basketball is asinine to begin with.



Football is an all day event. The game itself is just part of the experience with pre and post-game tailgating. Most home games are on Saturdays so the majority of people don't have to worry about work and kids don't have to worry about school.


In basketball 10 of 18 home games this year were on a weeknight, affecting work or school schedules. Three of these games tipped off at 9PM meaning that a fan like me here in the midlands it's putting it close to 2 AM that I get home at the earliest, for the fans coming from the Lowcountry or Pee Dee it's 4 AM or later. The basketball schedule just isn't anywhere near as fan friendly as the football schedule so any attempts to try and compare the two is not even an apples and oranges comparison it's apples and anvils.
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  #48  
Old 03-14-2019, 02:02 PM
clemsson clemsson is online now
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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Originally Posted by catdaddy2402 View Post
So your answer is to keep a coach who has two NCAA appearances in nine years, with the upcoming tenth year expected to be a huge drop off from this failed to meet expectations year, and you expect the fan support to get better?




Trying to compare the level of fan support for football and basketball is asinine to begin with.



Football is an all day event. The game itself is just part of the experience with pre and post-game tailgating. Most home games are on Saturdays so the majority of people don't have to worry about work and kids don't have to worry about school.


In basketball 10 of 18 home games this year were on a weeknight, affecting work or school schedules. Three of these games tipped off at 9PM meaning that a fan like me here in the midlands it's putting it close to 2 AM that I get home at the earliest, for the fans coming from the Lowcountry or Pee Dee it's 4 AM or later. The basketball schedule just isn't anywhere near as fan friendly as the football schedule so any attempts to try and compare the two is not even an apples and oranges comparison it's apples and anvils.
Believe it or not but there are schools who support their basketball program and football program both in fan support and spending. We can fire our coach but until our fans and admin buy in we will always be treading water
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  #49  
Old 03-14-2019, 02:18 PM
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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Originally Posted by clemsson View Post
Believe it or not but there are schools who support their basketball program and football program both in fan support and spending. We can fire our coach but until our fans and admin buy in we will always be treading water

Name these schools.
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  #50  
Old 03-14-2019, 02:19 PM
BloodTiger BloodTiger is offline
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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Believe it or not but there are schools who support their basketball program and football program both in fan support and spending. We can fire our coach but until our fans and admin buy in we will always be treading water
If we got a young basketball coach with an exciting up-tempo offense who was able to recruit and bring an excitement/buzz to the program, then students and fans in the area would attend.

When I was in school during the Purnell era, we regularly sold out games, even on weeknights.

Your argument is weak.
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  #51  
Old 03-14-2019, 02:59 PM
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Walhalla2Atlanta Walhalla2Atlanta is offline
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

The basketball issue is a “chicken or the egg” argument… play better and people will come, if people come the team will play better. I think it’s the former… go win some games and play an exciting brand of ball and butts will be in seats (or not, cause people like to stand up and watch when it’s exciting).

With the way our team has played, can anyone blame the lack of fan support?

Is a lackluster, average to below average ACC team really all we want? Is that good enough for y’all?

It’s not for me. But, it’s not my call and I have no idea who we could get that could do better. But I think we need to make a change.

I wanna see desperation full-court pressing for 40 minutes and running up and down the court like our hair’s on fire. I wanna see rim-shaking dunks and guys hitting 27-ft 3s. Honestly, I prefer OPPs teams, at this point. It was exciting. And the fans showed up to watch… in a pre-renovated LJC.
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  #52  
Old 03-14-2019, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

I've said and posted most of this before. Fan support follows wins. During OP's last year we averaged about 9400 in attendance. That's actually a higher number than Duke averages year to year. I know Duke is capacity restrained but it gives you an idea of how many fans were coming to the games that year. And you want to know why they showed up? It had everything to do with the fact that OP ran an exciting brand of basketball that was fun to watch, and we won consistently. That was the third year in a row we went to the tourney. You want fan support? The solution is really simple. Win some games. You do that and people will come.

The team has to show there's a reason to show up if you expect people to travel during the week and spend their weeknight time and money to watch. Stop flaming out in craptacular fashion and more people will come.
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  #53  
Old 03-14-2019, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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Originally Posted by Walhalla2Atlanta View Post
I wanna see desperation full-court pressing for 40 minutes and running up and down the court like our hair’s on fire. I wanna see rim-shaking dunks and guys hitting 27-ft 3s. Honestly, I prefer OPPs teams, at this point. It was exciting. And the fans showed up to watch… in a pre-renovated LJC.

And 0 NCAAT wins . . .
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  #54  
Old 03-14-2019, 04:41 PM
TigerFaninArkansas TigerFaninArkansas is offline
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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Originally Posted by BloodTiger View Post
If we got a young basketball coach with an exciting up-tempo offense who was able to recruit and bring an excitement/buzz to the program, then students and fans in the area would attend.

When I was in school during the Purnell era, we regularly sold out games, even on weeknights.

Your argument is weak.
Ticket sales isn't the issue with fan support, or at least not the only issue. Even during "sellouts" fans in the lower section do not show up to fill out the lower tier and many of them sell their tickets to UNC or Duke fans during those games. Hell, during the Syracuse game this year you could hear the Syracuse fans for a lot of that game.

I was a student during the Rick Barnes era and was around the university working from that time until late 2015. The only time I've seen a true sellout (coliseum full with mostly Clemson fans) is during many of the NIT runs. Why? Because tickets are cheap and the season ticket holders don't get to sell their seats to the competition.

I'm not sure how to do it, but Clemson needs to somehow implement a policy of showing up to games and not allowing transfer of tickets to fans of another school. Put the other schools fans where they belong, in a corner of the upper tier. The atmosphere for the most part if bad at Clemson for this reason.
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  #55  
Old 03-14-2019, 08:07 PM
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

All Clemson fans want is wins.

We'll fill Littlejohn
We'll fill The Doug
We'll fill Jervey
We'd probably line the shore of Hartwell up Twelve Mile River if the Crew team was fighting for a championship.

I have been a Clemson BBall fan a long time. I snuck my walkman into class in my inner coat pocket and ran an old school earbud up my sleeve so I could listen to the annual noon, first round beatdown by the #1 seed.

I am tired of being disappointed. I am tired of watching monumental leads crumble at the hands of ten minute scoring droughts (this ain't just the last game, it is history).

Further, I am tired of basketball being the sport that tides the majority over from football to baseball. I want better, and the style of basketball matters very little in the discussion (though every OP team could be beaten easily by two guards with handle). Winning is the placebo that cures all.
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  #56  
Old 03-14-2019, 08:23 PM
clemsson clemsson is online now
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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Originally Posted by BloodTiger View Post
If we got a young basketball coach with an exciting up-tempo offense who was able to recruit and bring an excitement/buzz to the program, then students and fans in the area would attend.

When I was in school during the Purnell era, we regularly sold out games, even on weeknights.

Your argument is weak.
I recall folks tiring of OP as he could not win a single game in the big dance. He got out as soon as he could which is the same thing your young coach will do if he is successful
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  #57  
Old 03-14-2019, 09:07 PM
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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I recall folks tiring of OP as he could not win a single game in the big dance. He got out as soon as he could which is the same thing your young coach will do if he is successful

If a young coach is successful and moves on we'll be better for it than we'll be going into year ten of the current regime with just two NCAA appearances to show for it and a returning roster that's going to have to fight for a NIT bid.



Those of you who want to keep Brownell because you are scared of being a stepping stone need to keep this in mind: the only reason other programs come after your coach is because he's been successful. Do you see anyone lining up to come after Brownell?
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  #58  
Old 03-14-2019, 09:42 PM
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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Originally Posted by catdaddy2402 View Post
If a young coach is successful and moves on we'll be better for it than we'll be going into year ten of the current regime with just two NCAA appearances to show for it and a returning roster that's going to have to fight for a NIT bid.



Those of you who want to keep Brownell because you are scared of being a stepping stone need to keep this in mind: the only reason other programs come after your coach is because he's been successful. Do you see anyone lining up to come after Brownell?
I don't know if Brad Brownell has had other offers because a lot of that stuff is done by reps behind closed doors to save face.

That said, if Clemson is such a horrible place to coach, with zero fan and admin support, why has Brownell stayed for so long? Rick Barnes who was successful jumped when a bigger and more prestigious job was offered. OP, was widely known as a program builder and while he stayed at Clemson longer then most expected, he did eventually leave when a new project and truck load of money presented itself.

If the environment surrounding Clemson basketball were as bad as some believe, for the life of me, I don't understand why Coach B hasn't left. I'm not saying we couldn't use more fan support or more money from the administration, but I don't believe the Clemson basketball job is as horrible as some choose to believe.
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Last edited by Cutigergrad04; 03-14-2019 at 09:53 PM.
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  #59  
Old 03-14-2019, 09:57 PM
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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Originally Posted by Cutigergrad04 View Post
I don't know if Brad Brownell has had other offers because a lot of that stuff is done by reps behind closed doors to save face.

That said, if Clemson is such a horrible place to coach, with zero fan and admin support, why has Brownell stayed for so long? Rick Barnes who was successful jumped when a bigger and more prestigious job was offered. OP, was widely known as a program builder and while he stayed at Clemson longer then most expected, he did eventually leave when a new project and truck load of money presented itself.

If the environment surrounding Clemson basketball were as bad as some believe, for the life of me, I don't understand why Coach B hasn't left. I'm not saying we couldn't use more fan support or more money from the administration, but I don't believe the Clemson basketball job is as horrible as some choose to believe.

Got to have offers to leave. In this era there's not too many coaching searches that are top secret.
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  #60  
Old 03-14-2019, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Tigers blow it

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Got to have offers to leave. In this era there's not too many coaching searches that are top secret.
I was luckily enough to work in college athletics after my playing days ended and it was crazy how many times search firms reached out to representatives or an AD working back channels and it never getting out. It's definitely a bit tougher in the age of social media, but you'd be surprised. I know coaches that would tell their reps that while there aren't any current jobs open that they'd leave for, they still wanted their guy to work the back channels.

I believe this is what Buzz Williams did in his final year or two at Marquette.
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