Clemson hoopster enters transfer portal

[catdaddy2402]

Originally Posted by Judge Keller

I don't think mediocre means what you think it does.

I don't think you understand what success in basketball means.

(Here's a hint: Brownell hasn't been a very successful basketball coach at Clemson)

[catdaddy2402]

Originally Posted by LawStudent

There have been many changes throughout Clemson's basketball history and not one of those has lead to a program that is consistently where some fans want it, i.e., consistent NCAAT participant. A change for change's sake does nothing. There needs to be a plan, which I think Neff is doing. I think he is giving Brownell every opportunity with better resources to become a coach that may still be here in 10 years that turns the program from a consistently below average team to a regular NCAAT participant. I admittedly don't know that CBB is the answer, but making a change for a coach that has success at a small school (Richey) or made a good NCAAT run (Rhodes) is not necessarily the answer either.

If I were to make a change, I would look for a coach that has had success in a situation like Clemson. Lower enrollment school, difficult to recruit to, 2nd fiddle to football, but at the Power 5 or high mid-major level that would want to coach in the ACC. I think most coaches don't view Clemson that highly, so it would take $, which I think Clemson is getting there or someone moving from a smaller school, which goes back to risk.

You can have your own opinion but you can't make up your own facts. The program that Brownell was handed was not "below average" and was in fact a "regular NCAAT participant." If anything he took a "regular NCAAT participant" and turned it into a "below average" program. If you are going to give him credit for getting the car out of the ditch you have to still dock points off his license for driving it in the ditch to begin with.

[LawStudent]

Originally Posted by catdaddy2402

You can have your own opinion but you can't make up your own facts. The program that Brownell was handed was not "below average" and was in fact a "regular NCAAT participant." If anything he took a "regular NCAAT participant" and turned it into a "below average" program. If you are going to give him credit for getting the car out of the ditch you have to still dock points off his license for driving it in the ditch to begin with.

You're somehow taking OP's final three years to tell me that I'm wrong that Clemson has been below average overall for its existence? Those three years did not change the course of Clemson basketball. It's a snapshot in time. I would also argue that CBB didn't drive it into the ditch. The car was already heading off the road once OP bolted.

What is about not being able to find either a good coach that will stick around (Barnes) or, if the rumors are true, a good coach without baggage (OP)?

I still believe that CBB is a good coach. I have said that I don't know if the right coach moving forward. I think Neff is trying to remove all doubt, whether that's for the big money boosters, the BOT, the fans, whoever.

[catdaddy2402]

Originally Posted by LawStudent

You're somehow taking OP's final three years to tell me that I'm wrong that Clemson has been below average overall for its existence? Those three years did not change the course of Clemson basketball. It's a snapshot in time. I would also argue that CBB didn't drive it into the ditch. The car was already heading off the road once OP bolted.

What is about not being able to find either a good coach that will stick around (Barnes) or, if the rumors are true, a good coach without baggage (OP)?

I still believe that CBB is a good coach. I have said that I don't know if the right coach moving forward. I think Neff is trying to remove all doubt, whether that's for the big money boosters, the BOT, the fans, whoever.

Brownell has yet to achieve any of the accomplishments of three of four predecessors. The only one he has exceeded has been Shyatt. This is despite the fact that he's been given more time and far more resources than any of them. He's done less with




Every stopped to think that the people who are really holding back Clemson basketball are people like you, Ken, and JK? People who are perfectly satisfied with mediocrity and make every excuse in the book to defend it?

[tigerpawgt]

I know Coach Purnell gets bashed for not winning an NCAAT game. However, his players had a stretch of an NIT runner-up finish followed by 4 straight NCAAT selections (note: last one with Brownell at the helm). Since the current definition of success is “make the tournament”, I think that was a pretty good record of sustained success at a time when the conference was viewed as stronger. It took him 3 seasons to rebuild off of the disastrous Shyatt years and without much investment in the program above the Clemson historical norm. I also recall more enthusiasm with the style of play and sold out LC for NIT games.

Anyhow, the above is not intended as a bashing of Brownell. I just think Purnell deserves a bit of recognition for what he achieved with his system. It worked for the regular season during that era of college basketball and created some excitement with 20+ win seasons. If you include his players with Brownell’s first season that was 5 consecutive seasons of atleast 21 wins.

I’d like to see Clemson get back to that kind of sustained winning. Maybe even extend the definition of success to “win a tournament game” on a regular basis. I won’t even pretend to know how to achieve that. That’s what Neff is paid to figure out.

[Johnstone86]

Originally Posted by catdaddy2402

Brownell has yet to achieve any of the accomplishments of three of four predecessors. The only one he has exceeded has been Shyatt. This is despite the fact that he's been given more time and far more resources than any of them. He's done less with




Every stopped to think that the people who are really holding back Clemson basketball are people like you, Ken, and JK? People who are perfectly satisfied with mediocrity and make every excuse in the book to defend it?

Amen brotha! Ditto! You would think a real Clemson fan would want us to try and win and not be afraid to try something different. Apparently our fan base has become complacent and risk averse.

[Johnstone86]

Originally Posted by tigerpawgt

I know Coach Purnell gets bashed for not winning an NCAAT game. However, his players had a stretch of an NIT runner-up finish followed by 4 straight NCAAT selections (note: last one with Brownell at the helm). Since the current definition of success is “make the tournament”, I think that was a pretty good record of sustained success at a time when the conference was viewed as stronger. It took him 3 seasons to rebuild off of the disastrous Shyatt years and without much investment in the program above the Clemson historical norm. I also recall more enthusiasm with the style of play and sold out LC for NIT games.

Anyhow, the above is not intended as a bashing of Brownell. I just think Purnell deserves a bit of recognition for what he achieved with his system. It worked for the regular season during that era of college basketball and created some excitement with 20+ win seasons. If you include his players with Brownell’s first season that was 5 consecutive seasons of atleast 21 wins.

I’d like to see Clemson get back to that kind of sustained winning. Maybe even extend the definition of success to “win a tournament game” on a regular basis. I won’t even pretend to know how to achieve that. That’s what Neff is paid to figure out.

Me too GT. Unfortunately we have to ignore (suffer through) Clemson basketball 1 more year before a change is made. I will never understand putting off what needs to be done when you have known it for years now. 🤷*♂️🙄

[LawStudent]

Originally Posted by catdaddy2402

Brownell has yet to achieve any of the accomplishments of three of four predecessors. The only one he has exceeded has been Shyatt. This is despite the fact that he's been given more time and far more resources than any of them. He's done less with




Every stopped to think that the people who are really holding back Clemson basketball are people like you, Ken, and JK? People who are perfectly satisfied with mediocrity and make every excuse in the book to defend it?

I'm a low-level IPTAY donor. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do or why my opinion would influence anyone that makes decisions. Again, restating (again), I'm not opposed to making a change. The people who do make decisions decided against making a change. They have their reasons. I've tried to articulate some speculation as to why, some of which Robert has even stated, but you don't care about those reasons because you don't agree with them. That's perfectly fine. I think you are justified in your opinion. I don't agree with your opinion, but that's ok, too.

I ask, have you ever considered the possibility that you could be wrong or misreading the situation? Have you considered the possibility that you and others that believe CBB should not be the coach are in the minority? Do you really think that if the majority of fans, administration, boosters, etc. thought a change was needed that Neff would simply keep CBB because they are friends? If Neff is only keeping CBB because they are friends, Neff and CBB should be fired. I don't think that's the case, though.

Continuing with these kinds of posts is pointless. CBB will be the coach at Clemson next year. I'm hoping some of these fans tune out as it will make this site much more enjoyable.

[Johnstone86]

Originally Posted by LawStudent

I'm a low-level IPTAY donor. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do or why my opinion would influence anyone that makes decisions. Again, restating (again), I'm not opposed to making a change. The people who do make decisions decided against making a change. They have their reasons. I've tried to articulate some speculation as to why, some of which Robert has even stated, but you don't care about those reasons because you don't agree with them. That's perfectly fine. I think you are justified in your opinion. I don't agree with your opinion, but that's ok, too.

I ask, have you ever considered the possibility that you could be wrong or misreading the situation? Have you considered the possibility that you and others that believe CBB should not be the coach are in the minority? Do you really think that if the majority of fans, administration, boosters, etc. thought a change was needed that Neff would simply keep CBB because they are friends? If Neff is only keeping CBB because they are friends, Neff and CBB should be fired. I don't think that's the case, though.

Continuing with these kinds of posts is pointless. CBB will be the coach at Clemson next year. I'm hoping some of these fans tune out as it will make this site much more enjoyable.

Based on 13 years of evidence, no. We are absolutely not wrong in expecting a change at the helm. Nope. Not wrong at all. Certain as rain. Which is why it is so infuriating for long time, blood runs orange, Clemson fans like us to see such illogical decisions. So just expect to hear about it over and over until a change is made because that is all we have to try and influence the situation. That and letters and withholding $.

[LawStudent]

Originally Posted by Johnstone86

Based on 13 years of evidence, no. We are absolutely not wrong in expecting a change at the helm. Nope. Not wrong at all. Certain as rain. Which is why it is so infuriating for long time, blood runs orange, Clemson fans like us to see such illogical decisions. So just expect to hear about it over and over until a change is made because that is all we have to try and influence the situation. That and letters and withholding $.

How's that working out for you?

[Johnstone86]

Originally Posted by LawStudent

How's that working out for you?

Just fine actually. It is my way of coping with the stupidity of excuse making by the Disney Tigers. If your program is not advancing year after year, then you are declining. THAT is the reality. And if folks are satisfied with that, then why wast any $ on the program at all? Just do away with it and use the $ elsewhere. Heck, invest in the softball team. At least they are winners!

Look, I give a certain amount of grace for coaches who win but have down years every now and then. I honestly do. However, 13 years of losing! And more than $1.5 million in salary? Come on man. Give me a break. This is just not right.

[catdaddy2402]

Originally Posted by LawStudent

How's that working out for you?

So far those of you who promote and defend mediocrity are winning. Enjoy!

[tigerman]

I was at a business gathering today of established tech leaders. These people are crazy smart, have built businesses over decades, done the hard work, and have years of experience and have many employees under them. As I said, they're leaders. They are remarkably diverse as well. [I was there to learn - not in their league]

Some recent MBA grads and undergrads asked questions that essentially went like this: What are you going to be able to offer me in terms of training and advancement?

Not unimportant questions, but perhaps you sniff the subtle entitlement like I did.

The answers, not surprisingly, were very similar, despite race, gender or nationality: earn it, do the work, take initiative, don't make excuses, achieve excellence.

And I though about Clemson basketball. The apologists have made every excuse under the sun for our mediocrity. If it was year 3 or 4, OK, maybe.

The fact remains: NO business worth its salt, in any country, in any sector, with any product would tolerate 13 years of medicore returns and reward the employee with handsome raises over and over.

Except Clemson basketball.

[Johnstone86]

Originally Posted by tigerman

I was at a business gathering today of established tech leaders. These people are crazy smart, have built businesses over decades, done the hard work, and have years of experience. They are remarkably divers as well. [I was there to learn - not in their league]

Some recent MBA grads and undergrads asked questions that essentially went like this: What are you going to be able to offer me in terms of training and advancement?

Not unimportant questions, but perhaps you sniff the subtle entitlement like I did.

The answers, not surprisingly, were very similar, despite race, gender or nationality: earn it, do the work, take initiative, don't make excuses, achieve excellence.

And I though about Clemson basketball. The apologists have made every excuse under the sun for our mediocrity. If it was year 3 or 4, OK, maybe.

The fact remains: NO business worth its salt, in any country, in any sector, with any product would tolerate 13 years of medicore returns and reward the employee with handsome raises over and over.

Except Clemson basketball.

Exactly! Any defender of it is either deluding themselves or really doesn’t value winning championships.

[clemsonfan]

For those who are defending Brownell, what will the excuse be next year when we win 17 games and end up in the nit again..........?

[Judge Keller]

LOL at the people here who have convinced themselves that they have high standards for Clemson basketball, and that those of us who support Brownell and Neff merely “support mediocrity.”

No, some of us realize that you can’t have champagne taste on a beer budget. You can’t whine about not being skinny when you eat junk and don’t exercise. You can’t be upset about making $25,000 a year when you chose not to go to college and work hard.

Bottom line: You can’t brag about being a football school, having the best football facilities money can buy, and paying Dabo $11 million a year, all while spending less on basketball than most of the rest of the ACC, and complain that we aren’t a consistent NCAA Tournament team.

I’m so tired of the disconnect here. If you want to be better at basketball, I hope you increase your IPTAY donation and show up at every basketball home game. And I hope you are willing to sacrifice football dollars if necessary. Because if you aren’t willing to do these things, you don’t want basketball success as much as you say you do. Rather, you just want to complain.

I’m fine with people wanting a new coach, but not without acknowledging that the coach isn’t the issue. Lack of support by the administration and fans is the problem. Over 100 years of data supports this. We need to do better if we want to be better.

[tigerman]

Yes, we've all heard your arguments ad nauseum.

You don't get it. You won't ever get it. That's fine.

In your universe everyone would succeed if only they received the same amount of resources.

In your universe the answer is to throw more money at problems, just as we've done with the public education system. That's been a rousing success.

But that's a fairy tale universe.

Those of us in the universe called reality have to deal with lack of resources all the time. In the real universe, leadership, initiative, hard work and know-how ALWAYS rise to the top. Always. If not at company A, then at company B. The only exception is when an entire system is rigged, but even then the great become great (see George Carver Washington and Frederick Douglass as examples - learn a little about Bill Snyder when he began at K State).

Those of us in the universe called "the real" know that mediocrity tends to...mediocrity. And greatness tends to greatness.

And once and for all: Dabo isn't great because he's paid $11 Million/year. Dabo is paid $11M/ year because he is great.

Put him in virtually any other situation and he would still succeed.

As long as you blame circumstances, you'll never be great. In my universe, I can't change circumstances. I have to change me.

But I'm fairly certain all of this ability and leadership talk is lost on you. After all, we know Brad would succeed if only more fans would show up.

[CUAg98]

Originally Posted by Robert Thorne MacRae

Actually not the case at all. I have some background on this transfer. I was told of it a few days ago.

The reason behind this transfer if he took a step forward and wants more PT. The reason he won't get more here at Clemson next season is because PJ will be back. In my book that is great news for Clemson basketball.

I will also add as I hinted before on TCI that if Brownell was not back PJ would not be coming back. PJ hasn't announced anything and will go through the process with the NBA but from what I have been told he will be back next season.

So there is very good news for Clemson basketball in this situation!

Considering that PJ likely needs to expand his outside game a bit to get NBA consideration, wonder if there was any discussion of trying a bigger lineup some next year, with PJ basically sliding into Tyson’s spot and Middlebrook taking more of the inside role, playing both at the same time on occasion? We’d still need another big man from the portal either way for backup.

[tigerpawgt]

Originally Posted by CUAg98

Considering that PJ likely needs to expand his outside game a bit to get NBA consideration, wonder if there was any discussion of trying a bigger lineup some next year, with PJ basically sliding into Tyson’s spot and Middlebrook taking more of the inside role, playing both at the same time on occasion? We’d still need another big man from the portal either way for backup.

Did you miss point about Middlebrooks leaving via the portal? Understandable considering how quickly the reason for this thread turned into a Brownell debate.

[BloodTiger]

Originally Posted by tigerman

Yes, we've all heard your arguments ad nauseum.

You don't get it. You won't ever get it. That's fine.

In your universe everyone would succeed if only they received the same amount of resources.

In your universe the answer is to throw more money at problems, just as we've done with the public education system. That's been a rousing success.

But that's a fairy tale universe.

Those of us in the universe called reality have to deal with lack of resources all the time. In the real universe, leadership, initiative, hard work and know-how ALWAYS rise to the top. Always. If not at company A, then at company B. The only exception is when an entire system is rigged, but even then the great become great (see George Carver Washington and Frederick Douglass as examples - learn a little about Bill Snyder when he began at K State).

Those of us in the universe called "the real" know that mediocrity tends to...mediocrity. And greatness tends to greatness.

And once and for all: Dabo isn't great because he's paid $11 Million/year. Dabo is paid $11M/ year because he is great.

Put him in virtually any other situation and he would still succeed.

As long as you blame circumstances, you'll never be great. In my universe, I can't change circumstances. I have to change me.

But I'm fairly certain all of this ability and leadership talk is lost on you. After all, we know Brad would succeed if only more fans would show up.

Boom, mic drop.

The sad thing is, you write this eloquent response but people with a loser mentality like certain posters on this board will be unable to comprehend it. They want a “fair” system and plead for equity when that’s not the way the world works.

Winners take and make things happen despite obstacles. Losers make excuses.