Clemson hoopster enters transfer portal

[Judge Keller]

Originally Posted by tigerman

Yes, we've all heard your arguments ad nauseum.

You don't get it. You won't ever get it. That's fine.

In your universe everyone would succeed if only they received the same amount of resources.

In your universe the answer is to throw more money at problems, just as we've done with the public education system. That's been a rousing success.

But that's a fairy tale universe.

Those of us in the universe called reality have to deal with lack of resources all the time. In the real universe, leadership, initiative, hard work and know-how ALWAYS rise to the top. Always. If not at company A, then at company B. The only exception is when an entire system is rigged, but even then the great become great (see George Carver Washington and Frederick Douglass as examples - learn a little about Bill Snyder when he began at K State).

Those of us in the universe called "the real" know that mediocrity tends to...mediocrity. And greatness tends to greatness.

And once and for all: Dabo isn't great because he's paid $11 Million/year. Dabo is paid $11M/ year because he is great.

Put him in virtually any other situation and he would still succeed.

As long as you blame circumstances, you'll never be great. In my universe, I can't change circumstances. I have to change me.

But I'm fairly certain all of this leadership talk is lost on you. After all, we know Brad would succeed if only more fans would show up.

No, you don’t get it.

Believing that we should be a top basketball program every year has to be based on something beyond the fact that you want it to happen. Why do you think Clemson deserves it when Clemson has never treated the basketball program as a priority, and never had that kind of success? Why should we have that when programs that have a much better basketball history and support basketball a lot better don’t have that?

It’s illogical to have higher standards but be unwilling to do what it takes to reach those standards.

No one is making excuses. It’s reality. Having the fifth most ACC wins over the last six years is outstanding for a program like ours, yet fans like you think that’s awful and are disgusted about it.

Expecting a coach to come in, make us a top program, and be able to sustain that success is a pipe dream. It’s never happened at Clemson, and never will as long as basketball continues to be an afterthought with the administration and fans.

As I’ve said before, I’m encouraged that Neff wants us to have basketball success, understands what it takes, and is willing to invest accordingly in the program. He believes in Brownell. Big donors believe in Brownell. Either they are misguided, or you are.

[CUAg98]

Originally Posted by tigerpawgt

Did you miss point about Middlebrooks leaving via the portal? Understandable considering how quickly the reason for this thread turned into a Brownell debate.

Lol, no I understand that Middlebrooks has entered the portal (and that PJ has not even declared for certain that he is coming back), I was just wondering out loud if there might have been some way to keep them both happy with PT next year if they both stayed! Useless discussion at this point I guess, but then again aren’t most of the posts on sites such as this?

[tigerman]

Originally Posted by Judge Keller

No, you don’t get it.

Believing that we should be a top basketball program every year has to be based on something beyond the fact that you want it to happen. Why do you think Clemson deserves it when Clemson has never treated the basketball program as a priority, and never had that kind of success? Why should we have that when programs that have a much better basketball history and support basketball a lot better don’t have that?

It’s illogical to have higher standards but be unwilling to do what it takes to reach those standards.

No one is making excuses. It’s reality. Having the fifth most ACC wins over the last six years is outstanding for a program like ours, yet fans like you think that’s awful and are disgusted about it.

Expecting a coach to come in, make us a top program, and be able to sustain that success is a pipe dream. It’s never happened at Clemson, and never will as long as basketball continues to be an afterthought with the administration and fans.

As I’ve said before, I’m encouraged that Neff wants us to have basketball success, understands what it takes, and is willing to invest accordingly in the program. He believes in Brownell. Big donors believe in Brownell. Either they are misguided, or you are.

Enjoy Fantasyland where unicorns poop rainbows and fairies grant lollipop wishes.

And Brad magically becomes a great leader.

See you next year, same mediocre record, same lame excuses.

[LawStudent]

Originally Posted by clemsonfan

For those who are defending Brownell, what will the excuse be next year when we win 17 games and end up in the nit again..........?

I think he gets fired.

[Johnstone86]

Originally Posted by Judge Keller

No, you don’t get it.

Believing that we should be a top basketball program every year has to be based on something beyond the fact that you want it to happen. Why do you think Clemson deserves it when Clemson has never treated the basketball program as a priority, and never had that kind of success? Why should we have that when programs that have a much better basketball history and support basketball a lot better don’t have that?

It’s illogical to have higher standards but be unwilling to do what it takes to reach those standards.

No one is making excuses. It’s reality. Having the fifth most ACC wins over the last six years is outstanding for a program like ours, yet fans like you think that’s awful and are disgusted about it.

Expecting a coach to come in, make us a top program, and be able to sustain that success is a pipe dream. It’s never happened at Clemson, and never will as long as basketball continues to be an afterthought with the administration and fans.

As I’ve said before, I’m encouraged that Neff wants us to have basketball success, understands what it takes, and is willing to invest accordingly in the program. He believes in Brownell. Big donors believe in Brownell. Either they are misguided, or you are.

No one expects Clemson basketball to be a top basketball team every year. However, they should be a top basketball team every 3 or 4 or 5 years.

And the biggest culprit of treating Clemson basketball as an afterthought are those keeping Brownell around this long and the fans who make excuses for doing so. We are seeing the poverty of low expectations right here in this discussion.

Until this program stops settling for mediocrity and instead starts setting “best is the standard” expectations, Clemson basketball will continue to wallow in mediocrity. You never attain what you don’t dream.

[Judge Keller]

Originally Posted by tigerman

Enjoy Fantasyland where unicorns poop rainbows and fairies grant lollipop wishes.

See you next year, same mediocre record, same lame excuses.

You can tell us all about Fantasyland, where big time basketball programs happen just because fans think their school deserves it.

[Judge Keller]

Originally Posted by Johnstone86

No one expects Clemson basketball to be a top basketball team every year. However, they should be a top basketball team every 3 or 4 or 5 years.

And the biggest culprit of treating Clemson basketball as an afterthought are those keeping Brownell around this long and the fans who make excuses for doing so. We are seeing the poverty of low expectations right here in this discussion.

Until this program stops settling for mediocrity and instead starts setting “best is the standard” expectations, Clemson basketball will continue to wallow in mediocrity. You never attain what you don’t dream.

Having higher expectations isn’t just about changing coaches though. It’s about giving the program what it needs in terms of funding and fan support.

Our football program didn’t win anything meaningful under Dabo until the administration upped the football budget and announced facility improvements. The coach is obviously important, but just part of the equation.

[Johnstone86]

Originally Posted by Judge Keller

Having higher expectations isn’t just about changing coaches though. It’s about giving the program what it needs in terms of funding and fan support.

Our football program didn’t win anything meaningful under Dabo until the administration upped the football budget and announced facility improvements. The coach is obviously important, but just part of the equation.

Miami doesn’t have better facilities and support than Clemson. They just have a better coach and better players. Now they pay their players a ton more than we pay ours (well NIL does). So there is that as well.

[Judge Keller]

Originally Posted by Johnstone86

Miami doesn’t have better facilities and support than Clemson. They just have a better coach and better players. Now they pay their players a ton more than we pay ours (well NIL does). So there is that as well.

I think Larrañaga is a very good coach, and two Elite Eights in a row speaks for itself. He also had three losing seasons in a row prior to that, finishing in the bottom third of the ACC each of those years. Some of you complain about Brownell teams being inconsistent, but Larrañaga takes inconsistency to a whole new level.

I would argue that they have much better support than we do. Their two stars demanded $1 million plus in NIL and threatened to leave if they didn’t get it. They got it. Do you think Clemson folks would’ve ponied up to meet that kind of monetary demand? They would’ve for football, but not for basketball.

Also, Miami spends more on their program than we do.

This is a great example of it being about way more than just the coach. But you know that, because otherwise we wouldn’t fund our football program the way we do.

[Johnstone86]

Originally Posted by Judge Keller

I think Larrañaga is a very good coach, and two Elite Eights in a row speaks for itself. He also had three losing seasons in a row prior to that, finishing in the bottom third of the ACC each of those years. Some of you complain about Brownell teams being inconsistent, but Larrañaga takes inconsistency to a whole new level.

I would argue that they have much better support than we do. Their two stars demanded $1 million plus in NIL and threatened to leave if they didn’t get it. They got it. Do you think Clemson folks would’ve ponied up to meet that kind of monetary demand? They would’ve for football, but not for basketball.

Also, Miami spends more on their program than we do.

This is a great example of it being about way more than just the coach. But you know that, because otherwise we wouldn’t fund our football program the way we do.

Yes, I know it is more than just the coach. But without that inspiring, no holds barred leadership, all the investment in the world won’t matter. Now if the the whole issue of bidding $$ to buy players is considered “investment in the program” then we will always be at a disadvantage. Clemson donors don’t have near the $$ to compete in that game.

And I go back and forth in my own head on this topic. If college sports is really going to just become a minor league for the pros with pay to play undergirding it, then why not abandon that track and stick to being in a purely amateur sport league. Stop trying to outspend the Joneses. Just be more like the Ivy League.

Let the other suckers chase that unicorn. At some point that seems to be the decision point Clemson is going to be forced to make. I don’t know. 🤷*♂️

[tigerman]

Originally Posted by Johnstone86

Yes, I know it is more than just the coach. But without that inspiring, no holds barred leadership, all the investment in the world won’t matter. Now if the the whole issue of bidding $$ to buy players is considered “investment in the program” then we will always be at a disadvantage. Clemson donors don’t have near the $$ to compete in that game.
*♂️

Hey Johnstone, don't be fooled by JK's shell game. Ask him what NIL looks like at K State and FAU.

See, that's this year's excuse. Last year was a different excuse, and so on.

JK and the other sycophants have another 12 months to come up with more rationalizations.

Bottom line: great leaders make their own success. The others just make excuses.

[Johnstone86]

Tigerman... you make a good point. And yes, great leaders make their successes. Losers make excuses.

[mikelongstroke]

I'm not getting into the mudslinging game that both "sides" of Clemson fans have been going at for four pages of this thread, because I have been on both sides of it. I understand the reasoning of EACH side, and I refuse to disparage anyone on either side because in the end I WANT CLEMSON BASKETBALL TO BE BETTER.

This I want to address

Originally Posted by CUAg98

Useless discussion at this point I guess, but then again aren’t most of the posts on sites such as this?

I don't feel message board threads like this are useless. They expose me to opinions that I don't often understand, or flat out disagree with, or are worthy of at least a weighted consideration. They also remind me that not all Clemson fans are the same, or have the same values. It is good to be reminded on a daily basis that not everyone thinks the way I do, and that I have to be better at delivering my message to sway people to see things the way I see them.

Bottom line: nobody where I work or where I shop has the same level of Clemson love than the people arguing over whether or not the basketball coach should have been given another year here. I would much rather read the debates here than to talk to someone on the street who does not give a crap about Clemson athletics.

(I do wish the insults and degradation would step aside for merited debate, but at least this isn't Twitter)

[tigerman]

Originally Posted by mikelongstroke

I'm not getting into the mudslinging game that both "sides" of Clemson fans have been going at for four pages of this thread, because I have been on both sides of it. I understand the reasoning of EACH side, and I refuse to disparage anyone on either side because in the end I WANT CLEMSON BASKETBALL TO BE BETTER.

This I want to address


I don't feel message board threads like this are useless. They expose me to opinions that I don't often understand, or flat out disagree with, or are worthy of at least a weighted consideration. They also remind me that not all Clemson fans are the same, or have the same values. It is good to be reminded on a daily basis that not everyone thinks the way I do, and that I have to be better at delivering my message to sway people to see things the way I see them.

Bottom line: nobody where I work or where I shop has the same level of Clemson love than the people arguing over whether or not the basketball coach should have been given another year here. I would much rather read the debates here than to talk to someone on the street who does not give a crap about Clemson athletics.

(I do wish the insults and degradation would step aside for merited debate, but at least this isn't Twitter)

I appreciate your tone. I, too, have been on both sides of this issue, but time has proven one conclusion clearly.

There is only one person on this site I have even slightly disparaged. I have 5 years of reading his drivel on multiple sites, without much of a response. He dominates whenever possible. Honestly, he's a bully. I've steered clear of him until the last couple of weeks. MANY are weary of his silliness. If you haven't run across it until recently, please try to bear with those who have been subject to it for years. I don't like bullies.

Unlike you, this person has no interest in considering different perspectives, or even considering the possiblity that they might think differently or even be wrong at any point (despite MOUNTAINS of evidence to the contrary). Therefore, they lack the capacity to grow and learn. You speak of swaying others, but you cannot sway the deaf.

It reveals my own need for growth that I bother to engage him in logical discussion. As my mama used to say: "you can't fix stupid."

[mikelongstroke]

"Even if you paint with a broad brush, you can't hit the whole wall with one stroke. The best you can hope for is to make each stroke the best you can do and repeat the process." (thanks Grandpa)

The way I see it, we are people and the only thing we distinctly have in common is loving Clemson.

The other thing I see about message board threads such as this one is that rather than clarifying ones' argument, people often resort to "taking down" the people who don't agree with their viewpoint.

If after I make my point known to the best of my ability, I stop arguing. (I do try many angles to achieve that) Brad Brownell will get another season at the helm. Nothing said here or anywhere else outside of the BoT meeting room will change that. Graham Neff saw something in this past season that he felt warranted staying the course. I don't have to like it, because it is his job to deal with the consequences of his decisions and not mine.

I fully believe that Neff, CBB, and the Board all want Clemson to achieve more. I hope they succeed, but that is why the games are played.

[Judge Keller]

Originally Posted by tigerman

Hey Johnstone, don't be fooled by JK's shell game. Ask him what NIL looks like at K State and FAU.

See, that's this year's excuse. Last year was a different excuse, and so on.

JK and the other sycophants have another 12 months to come up with more rationalizations.

Bottom line: great leaders make their own success. The others just make excuses.

Let me know when Kansas State and Florida Atlantic are consistently in the NCAA Tournament. Because that’s the whole point here. Plenty of teams can have a really good season here and there. After all, we were in the Sweet 16 not long ago. The issue is helping Clemson have consistent high level success in basketball - something we’ve never had. We need to support the program better if we want that to be realistic.

[tigerman]

Originally Posted by Judge Keller

Let me know when Kansas State and Florida Atlantic are consistently in the NCAA Tournament. Because that’s the whole point here. Plenty of teams can have a really good season here and there. After all, we were in the Sweet 16 not long ago. The issue is helping Clemson have consistent high level success in basketball - something we’ve never had. We need to support the program better if we want that to be realistic.

JK, please don't reply to my messages anymore and I'll show you the same courtesy.

You are not interested in what I have to say and I've had to endure your arguments for years. I know them inside and out.

So let's do each other a favor.

I will continue to post for others who have the capacity to listen and consider.

[tigerman]

Originally Posted by mikelongstroke

"Even if you paint with a broad brush, you can't hit the whole wall with one stroke. The best you can hope for is to make each stroke the best you can do and repeat the process." (thanks Grandpa)

The way I see it, we are people and the only thing we distinctly have in common is loving Clemson.

The other thing I see about message board threads such as this one is that rather than clarifying ones' argument, people often resort to "taking down" the people who don't agree with their viewpoint.

If after I make my point known to the best of my ability, I stop arguing. (I do try many angles to achieve that) Brad Brownell will get another season at the helm. Nothing said here or anywhere else outside of the BoT meeting room will change that. Graham Neff saw something in this past season that he felt warranted staying the course. I don't have to like it, because it is his job to deal with the consequences of his decisions and not mine.

I fully believe that Neff, CBB, and the Board all want Clemson to achieve more. I hope they succeed, but that is why the games are played.

I respect your right to allow the powers to be to do their thing. Smart strategy in many instances.

But some would prefer to point out the remarkable inconsistencies in our athletic department and basketball "leadership" in the hope that some in our fan base will stop listening to the gaslighting from our Athletic Department and demand accountability, fresh ideas, and better results. Crying in the wilderness, perhaps.

I've endured hearbreak at the hands of Clemson basketball for many years. I hope you can bear with me if I refuse to accept blame-shifting, mediocrity, and excuses for an answer.

[mikelongstroke]

Originally Posted by tigerman

I respect your right to allow the powers to be to do their thing. Smart strategy in many instances.

But some would prefer to point out the remarkable inconsistencies in our athletic department and basketball "leadership" in the hope that some in our fan base will stop listening to the gaslighting from our Athletic Department and demand accountability, fresh ideas, and better results. Crying in the wilderness, perhaps.

I've endured hearbreak at the hands of Clemson basketball for many years. I hope you can bear with me if I refuse to accept blame-shifting, mediocrity, and excuses for an answer.

I am still heartbroken by our two bigs standing on their feet and watching as Tate George broke our hearts after David Young hit what should have been the game winner. Therefore I've been around enough to feel the pain of being the regular season winner of the conference and the #1 seed only to lose the noon game to Wake. Neff has next season to prove my gut wrong because he has the reins... and that is the premier reason I'm trying to be optimistic. I don't have to bear the weight of the consequences, just another year of waiting for more.

[tigerman]

Originally Posted by mikelongstroke

I am still heartbroken by our two bigs standing on their feet and watching as Tate George broke our hearts after David Young hit what should have been the game winner. Therefore I've been around enough to feel the pain of being the regular season winner of the conference and the #1 seed only to lose the noon game to Wake. Neff has next season to prove my gut wrong because he has the reins... and that is the premier reason I'm trying to be optimistic. I don't have to bear the weight of the consequences, just another year of waiting for more.

Yep, I remember where I was when I watched that happened. I was also in DV for the punterooskie. I had shaved paws into my hair for the game. Brutal...but I wouldn't have missed those for anything. My blood definitely is orange.

I hear you. It's like watching your children underachieve when you KNOW they're capable of so much more. Tough to just stand by and watch.