Clemson hoopster enters transfer portal

[Johnstone86]

Originally Posted by tigerman

Yep, I remember where I was when I watched that happen. I was also in DV for the punterooskie. I had shaved paws into my hair for the game. Brutal...but I wouldn't have missed it for anything. My blood definitely is orange.

I hear you. It's like watching your children underachieve when you KNOW they're capable of so much more. Tough to just stand by and watch.

I was there in DV too for the puntrooskie… and watched that UConn shot in disbelief. 😡🤦*♂️

[tigerman]

Originally Posted by Johnstone86

I was there in DV too for the puntrooskie… and watched that UConn shot in disbelief. 😡🤦*♂️

The worst day being a Tiger fan is exponentially better than the best day being a chicken.

[Judge Keller]

Originally Posted by tigerman

JK, please don't reply to my messages anymore and I'll show you the same courtesy.

You are not interested in what I have to say and I've had to endure your arguments for years. I know them inside and out.

So let's do each other a favor.

I will continue to post for others who have the capacity to listen and consider.

Let me get this straight. So far, you’ve called me a sycophant, accused me of having a shell game, and said that I make excuses and rationalizations, yet I’ve still responded to your posts respectfully and with well-reasoned arguments, and yet you have the nerve to say that I don’t care what you have to say?!? Seriously?

Unfortunately, it seems that you are one of those fans who has decided that you know better than Neff, Brownell, the players, major donors, and the board of trustees, all who like Brad and want him to be our coach. You have decided that he’s awful and that a new coach would magically transform our poorly funded and supported program despite the odds of that being incredibly low. And what’s worse is that you criticize fans who disagree with you, and when you don’t like what they say, you tap out.

Perhaps message boards aren’t for you.

I’ll do my best to not respond to your posts moving forward.

[LawStudent]

Originally Posted by tigerman

Hey Johnstone, don't be fooled by JK's shell game. Ask him what NIL looks like at K State and FAU.

See, that's this year's excuse. Last year was a different excuse, and so on.

JK and the other sycophants have another 12 months to come up with more rationalizations.

Bottom line: great leaders make their own success. The others just make excuses.

I really dislike arguments that try to make a distinction between NCAAT runs and program success. What FAU is doing is great, but it is not an indication of a great program. They had a great season, but their previous 4 years were .500 basketball. What happens in the NCAAT is 100% mutually exclusive of regular season success. The NCAAT as designed is set up for the upset. Why are the NBA, NHL, MLB playoffs series rather than single elimination (even college baseball and softball)? Each of those sports due to the nature of those sports lends itself to upsets.

Now, that being said, watching FAU, I was much more impressed with them than KSU. Their offensive sets were very similar to what Clemson runs, i.e., motion offense.

[tigerman]

Originally Posted by Judge Keller

Let me get this straight. So far, you’ve called me a sycophant, accused me of having a shell game, and said that I make excuses and rationalizations, yet I’ve still responded to your posts respectfully and with well-reasoned arguments, and yet you have the nerve to say that I don’t care what you have to say?!? Seriously?

Unfortunately, it seems that you are one of those fans who has decided that you know better than Neff, Brownell, the players, major donors, and the board of trustees, all who like Brad and want him to be our coach. You have decided that he’s awful and that a new coach would magically transform our poorly funded and supported program despite the odds of that being incredibly low. And what’s worse is that you criticize fans who disagree with you, and when you don’t like what they say, you tap out.

Perhaps message boards aren’t for you.

I’ll do my best to not respond to your posts moving forward.

The difference is that I've had to endure your rationalizations for many years. Some stay the same but this past year you've added NIL as your excuse for mediocrity. You live in your own echo chamber where you always agree with you.

Your facts aren't facts and you seem to lack the capacity to look at things from a different angle, or to consider that you may, indeed, be myopic.

People who lack the capacity to listen and consider will never grow.

And no, I don't think the powers that be are all-knowing, and I have huge swathes of human history and sports history to which I might appeal on this point. The powers that be at Clemson thought Larry Shyatt and Tommy West were great solutions. But after 13 years of this particular failed experiment, it's not an opinion that Clemson basketball is average.

Sycophant is only a pejorative term when it's not true.

[tigerman]

Originally Posted by LawStudent

I really dislike arguments that try to make a distinction between NCAAT runs and program success. What FAU is doing is great, but it is not an indication of a great program. They had a great season, but their previous 4 years were .500 basketball. What happens in the NCAAT is 100% mutually exclusive of regular season success. The NCAAT as designed is set up for the upset. Why are the NBA, NHL, MLB playoffs series rather than single elimination (even college baseball and softball)? Each of those sports due to the nature of those sports lends itself to upsets.

Now, that being said, watching FAU, I was much more impressed with them than KSU. Their offensive sets were very similar to what Clemson runs, i.e., motion offense.

Happy to talk program. We have a chronically average one. We have a consistently inconsistent one. We have one that seems content with the status quo.

FAU an aberration? Of course. But so was our run to the Sweet 16 on the shoulders of Gabe Devoe.

[Judge Keller]

Originally Posted by LawStudent

I really dislike arguments that try to make a distinction between NCAAT runs and program success. What FAU is doing is great, but it is not an indication of a great program. They had a great season, but their previous 4 years were .500 basketball. What happens in the NCAAT is 100% mutually exclusive of regular season success. The NCAAT as designed is set up for the upset. Why are the NBA, NHL, MLB playoffs series rather than single elimination (even college baseball and softball)? Each of those sports due to the nature of those sports lends itself to upsets.

Now, that being said, watching FAU, I was much more impressed with them than KSU. Their offensive sets were very similar to what Clemson runs, i.e., motion offense.

This is a great point, and a good reminder for some of our fans who seem to think that any program that has NCAA Tournament success one year is better than ours.

[clemsonfan]

Originally Posted by tigerman

Happy to talk program. We have a chronically average one. We have a consistently inconsistent one. We have one that seems content with the status quo.

FAU an aberration? Of course. But so was our run to the Sweet 16 on the shoulders of Gabe Devoe.

Absolutely on point.

[LawStudent]

Originally Posted by tigerman

Happy to talk program. We have a chronically average one. We have a consistently inconsistent one. We have one that seems content with the status quo.

FAU an aberration? Of course. But so was our run to the Sweet 16 on the shoulders of Gabe Devoe.

So, we're starting to get closer in our opinions. Clemson's basketball program under CBB is "average." It's below average. It's not terrible. It's definitely inconsistent, but I think that's the nature of college basketball. I think you 100% mistaken that those around the basketball program are content with the status quo. You think that because a change wasn't made. That doesn't make it a fact. I would argue that Neff, CBB, BoT aren't content, which is why spending went up for assistants, it's why LJC was renovated and now they're planning on Phase 2. It also shows that the administration didn't feel like they were necessarily supporting basketball enough.

Again, I think Neff is removing all objections that CBB could make for not "turning the corner."

[Judge Keller]

Originally Posted by LawStudent

So, we're starting to get closer in our opinions. Clemson's basketball program under CBB is "average." It's below average. It's not terrible. It's definitely inconsistent, but I think that's the nature of college basketball. I think you 100% mistaken that those around the basketball program are content with the status quo. You think that because a change wasn't made. That doesn't make it a fact. I would argue that Neff, CBB, BoT aren't content, which is why spending went up for assistants, it's why LJC was renovated and now they're planning on Phase 2. It also shows that the administration didn't feel like they were necessarily supporting basketball enough.

Again, I think Neff is removing all objections that CBB could make for not "turning the corner."

I agree. All of the people you mentioned understand that consistent success in college basketball isn't just about the coach, it's about the program. Of course the coach is part of it, but it doesn't matter who the coach is if the program isn't well-funded and well-supported.

This should be common sense to our fans, since Clemson football wasn't very successful under Dabo until we started providing the program with better facilities and better assistant coaches - and that was at a football school with a good football history. Basketball has a much bigger uphill climb than football ever has, and thankfully Graham Neff understands that and is supporting the program better (i.e., support more in line with the kind of program we want to have).

As I've said before, supporting the basketball program better is always a good idea. It gives a coach who has had success here a better chance of having more success, and it also puts the program in an improved position to hire his replacement if things don't work out.

[LawStudent]

Originally Posted by Judge Keller

As I've said before, supporting the basketball program better is always a good idea. It gives a coach who has had success here a better chance of having more success, and it also puts the program in an improved position to hire his replacement if things don't work out.

I truly think Neff is looking at the big picture here. If he has to move on from CBB, he wants to make sure that Clemson basketball is a destination position that would attract a great deal of interest. He's allowing CBB the opportunity to "prove it" while focusing on the long-term health of the program.

[CUAg98]

Originally Posted by Judge Keller

I agree. All of the people you mentioned understand that consistent success in college basketball isn't just about the coach, it's about the program. Of course the coach is part of it, but it doesn't matter who the coach is if the program isn't well-funded and well-supported.

This should be common sense to our fans, since Clemson football wasn't very successful under Dabo until we started providing the program with better facilities and better assistant coaches - and that was at a football school with a good football history. Basketball has a much bigger uphill climb than football ever has, and thankfully Graham Neff understands that and is supporting the program better (i.e., support more in line with the kind of program we want to have).

As I've said before, supporting the basketball program better is always a good idea. It gives a coach who has had success here a better chance of having more success, and it also puts the program in an improved position to hire his replacement if things don't work out.

Unfortunately we are at a real conundrum when it comes to the support issue. It appears that continued support from boosters is a major factor that Neff has used to be a basis for hanging onto Brownell for 14 years. This makes it clear that the only way for fans to make it known that they are fed up with a coach that has reached his ceiling is to stop their support. How else can a fan make it clear that their support is for Clemson basketball only and absolutely not for a coach?

[Judge Keller]

Originally Posted by CUAg98

Unfortunately we are at a real conundrum when it comes to the support issue. It appears that continued support from boosters is a major factor that Neff has used to be a basis for hanging onto Brownell for 14 years. This makes it clear that the only way for fans to make it known that they are fed up with a coach that has reached his ceiling is to stop their support. How else can a fan make it clear that their support is for Clemson basketball only and absolutely not for a coach?

What if Brownell hasn’t reached his ceiling here? What if some of the reasons we aren’t a consistent NCAA Tournament team are due to factors beyond Brownell’s control, but are within the administration’s control?

I can tell you that there are certainly big boosters who like Brad a lot, but that isn’t why he is still our coach. Neff likes him a lot too. Also, Neff really wants a great basketball program at Clemson. It’s not just lip service.

[catdaddy2402]

Originally Posted by Judge Keller

I agree. All of the people you mentioned understand that consistent success in college basketball isn't just about the coach, it's about the program. Of course the coach is part of it, but it doesn't matter who the coach is if the program isn't well-funded and well-supported.

This should be common sense to our fans, since Clemson football wasn't very successful under Dabo until we started providing the program with better facilities and better assistant coaches - and that was at a football school with a good football history. Basketball has a much bigger uphill climb than football ever has, and thankfully Graham Neff understands that and is supporting the program better (i.e., support more in line with the kind of program we want to have).

As I've said before, supporting the basketball program better is always a good idea. It gives a coach who has had success here a better chance of having more success, and it also puts the program in an improved position to hire his replacement if things don't work out.

How many times do we have to correct this lie of yours before you stop trotting it out? Dabo won BEFORE he got facilities and better assistant coaches pay.

"Chad Morris got $1.3 million a year!" His initial salary at Clemson was $450k. It was only after winning a championship that the salary was raised.

"Look at the Reeves Complex" It opened in 2017 after two ACC titles and a division title.

In fact Dabo had to forgo a raise one year to better pay his assistants. Brownell should be backing up to the pay window because he's too embarrassed from lack of results to face Clemson when they hand him his pay check.

[Johnstone86]

Originally Posted by catdaddy2402

How many times do we have to correct this lie of yours before you stop trotting it out? Dabo won BEFORE he got facilities and better assistant coaches pay.

"Chad Morris got $1.3 million a year!" His initial salary at Clemson was $450k. It was only after winning a championship that the salary was raised.

"Look at the Reeves Complex" It opened in 2017 after two ACC titles and a division title.

In fact Dabo had to forgo a raise one year to better pay his assistants. Brownell should be backing up to the pay window because he's too embarrassed from lack of results to face Clemson when they hand him his pay check.

Catdaddy… you know the cheerleaders and Disney Tigers get the last say. Others must be silenced. Get ready sir… 🤷*♂️🤦*♂️

[tigerpawgt]

The thing to remember is that Dabo sold the University on his vision for Clemson football. That included getting personally involved in selling that vision to contributors so that things like the football complex could be built. The university was buying into something that wouldn’t be like “Bama”, it would be Clemson. When I say Clemson, I mean football Clemson. The very heart of athletics at Clemson. Now it just happens that success in football generates an economic impact in 100’s of millions if not well over a billion dollars. The university took a risk on that vision and let him work his plan. He’s been rewarded for the achievements of that vision.

If Clemson ever gets an invite to join one of the wealthy conferences it will be because of the tv ratings and national brand created under the football banner.

Brownell has put in hard work to also get facilities upgrades. Plenty of sweat equity, but the payback only moves the needle on Clemson economics a small fraction compared to football.

[mikelongstroke]

Originally Posted by CUAg98

Unfortunately we are at a real conundrum when it comes to the support issue. It appears that continued support from boosters is a major factor that Neff has used to be a basis for hanging onto Brownell for 14 years. This makes it clear that the only way for fans to make it known that they are fed up with a coach that has reached his ceiling is to stop their support. How else can a fan make it clear that their support is for Clemson basketball only and absolutely not for a coach?

Originally Posted by Judge Keller

What if Brownell hasn’t reached his ceiling here? What if some of the reasons we aren’t a consistent NCAA Tournament team are due to factors beyond Brownell’s control, but are within the administration’s control?

I can tell you that there are certainly big boosters who like Brad a lot, but that isn’t why he is still our coach. Neff likes him a lot too. Also, Neff really wants a great basketball program at Clemson. It’s not just lip service.

Why did you absolutely avoid his question, Judge? You would have been better off not quoting him at all rather than going political and supplying two paragraphs that completely ignored the question.

[Judge Keller]

Originally Posted by mikelongstroke

Why did you absolutely avoid his question, Judge? You would have been better off not quoting him at all rather than going political and supplying two paragraphs that completely ignored the question.

I don’t believe that withholding donations, failing to show up to cheer for the team, and tearing down the program online serves a purpose.

If someone loves the program but doesn’t love the coach, then a well-written letter or email to Graham Neff, or perhaps even a sit down meeting, would surely get his attention if the person in front of him has a long record of donations, season tickets, and strong support for the program.

Someone who stops giving and stops showing up shows themselves to be a fair-weather fan, and isn’t going to move the needle with Neff or anyone else who makes decisions at Clemson.

[tigerman]

Originally Posted by catdaddy2402

How many times do we have to correct this lie of yours before you stop trotting it out? Dabo won BEFORE he got facilities and better assistant coaches pay.

"Chad Morris got $1.3 million a year!" His initial salary at Clemson was $450k. It was only after winning a championship that the salary was raised.

"Look at the Reeves Complex" It opened in 2017 after two ACC titles and a division title.

In fact Dabo had to forgo a raise one year to better pay his assistants. Brownell should be backing up to the pay window because he's too embarrassed from lack of results to face Clemson when they hand him his pay check.

Thank you for doing this, catdaddy.

The historical revisionism is remarkable and perhaps intentionally deceptive and malicious - hard to tell sometimes.

Here's the reality: the Clemson football program was SIGNIFICANTLY better within 24 hours of hiring Dabo.

Why? Dabo's leadership and vision.

And he enacted it within hours, not weeks, months or 13 years. Remember the "Dandy Dozen", Dabo's first recruiting class? He didn't make excuses. He turned a negative into a positive. And he kept building PEOPLE, which is his real legacy.

His first full year as coach: 1st in the division and won the Music City Bowl, long before any facility improvements or high dollar assistants.

Thank you again for correcting the false narrative.

[Judge Keller]

Originally Posted by catdaddy2402

How many times do we have to correct this lie of yours before you stop trotting it out? Dabo won BEFORE he got facilities and better assistant coaches pay.

Dabo won his first ACC title in 2011. That was arguably his first real taste of success as Clemson head coach.

Prior to that season, he was just 19-15 overall, and had already had the following investments made during his tenure:

-Kevin Steele hired away from his role as Alabama DC
-Indoor practice facility announced
-Chad Morris hired as OC

Each of these were notable investments by our AD before Dabo had accomplished anything of note as our head coach.

And on top of that, we already had one of the best supported football programs in the ACC to begin with, before these program enhancements.

As you can see, the notion that Dabo proved himself before we provided substantial investments in the program is incorrect.

I know it pains some of you who want to act like Dabo worked for scraps and bootstrapped his way to building an elite program at Clemson without much help, but it’s simply not true.

This isn’t to take away from Dabo’s enthusiasm as a young coach, his ability to inspire others, or the great decisions he eventually made in assembling his staff. He’s an incredible coach, but his success here wouldn’t have happened if the administration and fans weren’t “all in” to provide him with a high level of support.

And that’s precisely the point with our basketball program. It’s ludicrous to expect Brownell or any other coach to have consistent success here without a substantial investment made by the AD and fans. If a coach like Dabo, and a sport like football, needed that high level commitment, you better believe basketball does to have any shot at being a consistent NCAA Tournament team. I believe it’s very possible here, but we have to do better. I’m encouraged that it’s happening under Neff’s watch.