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  #1  
Old 05-27-2015, 09:49 AM
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Default Does Clemson have a double standard?

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  #2  
Old 05-27-2015, 10:16 AM
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Gvegastiger49 Gvegastiger49 is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

The overall circumstances are pretty different when you look at the larger picture. The baseball team has fallen from the standard Wilhelm set and Leggett continued. We made a regional this year by the skin of our teeth and the graph of total wins over the last 5 years is going in the wrong direction.

Winning in basketball at Clemson is a lot more difficult than winning in football or baseball. Brownell's task is a lot more difficult. Not to say that Leggett's is a walk in the park, but it's not ice skating up hill. He has challenges but so does every single coach in America. If we had the same ACC record and won the mid week games we should have won this year the feeling would be a lot different. Losing to teams with less to work with then even we have shouldn't happen here. Ever.

Having said that I'd be willing to extend Leggett's contract provided he makes a staff change. I think he's earned the right to turn the ship around with the help of the new facilities. But he's gotta realize we need better coaching in the bullpen.
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Old 05-27-2015, 10:19 AM
cgthedub cgthedub is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Give him another contract and give him the facilities and resources that he needs, he'll get it done. You said it, he's a Hall of Famer. He hasn't forgotten how to coach.
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Old 05-27-2015, 10:24 AM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Good comparison, Will. I doubt many people have thought of it that way.
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  #5  
Old 05-27-2015, 10:24 AM
vhoward vhoward is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Who didn't see this article coming?
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  #6  
Old 05-27-2015, 10:43 AM
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Hale McGranahan Hale McGranahan is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

I think it's just a matter of preference for the AD.

He believes in the basketball coach. Doesn't appear to be that way with the baseball coach.
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Old 05-27-2015, 10:45 AM
tigerfan700 tigerfan700 is online now
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Clemson basketball should never be compared to Clemson baseball or football. A better comparison is what Texas did to Rick Barnes Texas basketball should be better so they made a change Clemson baseball should be worried about being a national seed on selection Monday not trying to beg its way into the tournament.
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Old 05-27-2015, 10:54 AM
Acheron Acheron is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Another issue I am sure the AD considers is that in spite of the fact that Clemson Basketball does not have the tradition and history that Clemson Baseball does, Clemson Basketball is a money maker, not a money taker.

In that respect, I would imagine that the AD will see the upgrade to Littlejohn and the commitment to Brownell as an investment to increase the profitability of Clemson Basketball and make it a bigger money maker.

Clemson Baseball will never generate profit. That along with the fact that Clemson Baseball had at one point an actual high standard of excellence (which apparently is no longer the case here) makes the coaching contract discussion totally different between the two sports.
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Old 05-27-2015, 10:55 AM
Acheron Acheron is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerfan700 View Post
Clemson basketball should never be compared to Clemson baseball or football. A better comparison is what Texas did to Rick Barnes Texas basketball should be better so they made a change Clemson baseball should be worried about being a national seed on selection Monday not trying to beg its way into the tournament.
Great post.
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  #10  
Old 05-27-2015, 11:08 AM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerfan700 View Post
Clemson basketball should never be compared to Clemson baseball or football. A better comparison is what Texas did to Rick Barnes Texas basketball should be better so they made a change Clemson baseball should be worried about being a national seed on selection Monday not trying to beg its way into the tournament.
I tend to agree with you. It's kinda apples and oranges to me.
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Old 05-27-2015, 11:18 AM
tigerchan tigerchan is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Not sure how you can compare those results without looking at the investment side. I would love to see where Clemson ranks compared to the rest of the nation in baseball spending and basketball spending. Without digging up the numbers I would wager that our baseball program ranks a whole lot higher nationally than our basketball team.
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  #12  
Old 05-27-2015, 11:33 AM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

The point I'm making is that basketball is getting new facilities that should help with its overall recruiting and even the playing field out somewhat. It is not totally going to help, but it will help and Brownell will be able to recruit off it, which I think is fair he gets that shot. He has been asking for these upgrades and he is going to be able to use them now.

You guys keep pointing to how Clemson has slipped in the last several years but the reason for the slip, you conveniently don't look at. Leggett has been trying to improve the players' facility before Brownell even came to Clemson.

It is no coincidence Clemson's fall from the baseball ranks began in 2012, the year after the new rules were in place with scholarships and money, and do not give me that crap that they were slipping prior to that.

In 2011, you hosted a regional as a No. 1 seed in it. The Tigers were 39-17 in the regular season and finished the year 43-20.

In 2010, you went to the College World Series and finished third. And don't give me "yeah, but they got hot late" mess. They still made it there and that is hard to do and is a great accomplishment for your program.

In 2009, you went to Arizona State for a Super Regional and went 44-22.

In 2008, yes, it was a bad year (31-27-1) by Clemson standards, but look how the program bounced back the following three years. There was no trend there.

In 2007, advanced to the Super Regional Round and went 41-23.

In 2006, advanced the CWS and was the No. 1 overall seed. They went 53-16.

In 2005, advanced to the Super Regional and were 43-23 overall.

So I'll give you that 2012, 2013 and 2014 shows a downward trend, but please look at all the facts. It's no coincidence it all began at the same time. Give Leggett the extension and the same admin support Brownell is getting and let's see what he does with it.

I know he can win with those improvements. He has proven he can still win with less and get you in the tournament year after year. Imagine what he can do with more.

Last edited by Will Vandervort; 05-27-2015 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 05-27-2015, 11:50 AM
MBail923 MBail923 is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Vandervort View Post
The point I'm making is that basketball is getting new facilities that should help with its overall recruiting and even the playing field out somewhat. It is not totally going to help, but it will help and Brownell will be able to recruit off it, which I think is fair that he gets that shot. He has been asking for these upgrades and he is going to be able to use them now.

You guys keep pointing to how Clemson has slipped in the last several years but of the reason for the slip, you conveniently don't look at. Leggett has been trying to improve the players' facility before Brownell even came to Clemson.

It is no coincidence Clemson falls from the baseball ranks began in 2012, the year after the new rules were in place with scholarships and money, and do not give me that crap that they were slipping prior to that.

In 2011, you hosted a regional as a No. 1 seed in it. The Tigers were 39-17 in the regular season and finished the year 43-20.

In 2010, you went to the College World Series and finished third. And don't give me "yeah, but they got hot late" mess. They still made it there and that is hard to do and is a great accomplishment for your program.

In 2009, you went to Arizona State for a Super Regional and went 44-22.

In 2008, yes, it was a bad year (31-27-1) by Clemson standards, but look how the program bounced back the following three years. There was no trend there.

In 2007, advanced to the Super Regional Round and went 41-23.

In 2006, advanced the CWS and was the No. 1 overall seed. They went 53-16.

In 2005, advanced to the Super Regional and were 43-23 overall.

So I'll give you that 2012, 2013 and 2014 shows a downward trend, but please look at all the facts. It's no coincidence it all began at the same time. Give Leggett the extension and the same admin support Brownell is getting and let's see what he does with it.

I know he can win with those improvements. He has proven he can still win with less and get you in the tournament year after year. Imagine what he can do with more.
I don't ever remember reading on this site (not the other D1 rankings, etc) that recruiting had fallen off during 2012, 2013, 2014. I think it was more along the lines of help is on the way and Omaha should be a realistic goal. Why are we now saying he hasn't been able to get the recruits he wanted?
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:17 PM
AllOrange67 AllOrange67 is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

I really do see this as apples and oranges. I am in favor of keeping Jack at least 1 more year BUT I see squeaking into a regional across the country as a 3 seed as about the equivalent of the NIT- now if we win that regional and advance to a Super, that's different, but making the NCAA field in basketball for Clemson is a major accomplishment, making it in baseball should be a given - and everywhere I've seen, from pre-season review here to D1 Baseball says we have top notch talent - and when we're getting Top 20 guys to sign with us every year ( even if the don't come), that shouldn't even be an argument.
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  #15  
Old 05-27-2015, 12:28 PM
tigerchan tigerchan is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

I have a hard time believing that there are 63 teams in college baseball with better talent than Clemson. If that's what's being sold right now I ain't buying.
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  #16  
Old 05-27-2015, 12:38 PM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

You can believe what you want, but Robert and others have put out the recruiting numbers in recent threads in the last few weeks that show Clemson has dropped in recruiting the last three years. Clemson's personnel and depth is not what it was 10 years ago. I can't believe you guys don't see that. But I can't make you see it or change your opinion. All I can do is inform you of both sides and I like to think I have done that.

Robert, I know, has done the same.
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:58 PM
MBail923 MBail923 is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Vandervort View Post
You can believe what you want, but Robert and others have put out the recruiting numbers in recent threads in the last few weeks that show Clemson has dropped in recruiting the last three years. Clemson's personnel and depth is not what it was 10 years ago. I can't believe you guys don't see that. But I can't make you see it or change your opinion. All I can do is inform you of both sides and I like to think I have done that.

Robert, I know, has done the same.
Those recruiting numbers don't align with what we have heard from those close to the program from this site, which are much more informed than the national websites. We've heard about some of the better classes coming in over the last 5 years. Are we hearing now that the staff wasn't necessarily pleased with the talent level they have been getting?

It sounds more like the talent has been obtained despite the recruiting disadvantages, which is a testament to the staffs hard work. However, there can also be misses, injuries, bad luck, etc along the way that lead to subpar seasons. Getting some of the more talented high school players doesn't seem to be the primary issue at this point.
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Old 05-27-2015, 01:15 PM
Acheron Acheron is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Will,

I ask this honestly, because I touched on it in the Jack Leggett thread but it wasn't really addressed.

What is the standard for Clemson Baseball now in 2015? Because it is clear to me that for TCI the standard is most certainly not set at winning 38-40 games and hosting a regional as it once was in the not so distant past.

Is the standard just squeaking into a regional such as this year? Is the standard more or less than that? Is the standard whatever TCI decides that it is in any given year? Is there no standard at all, and therefore set in any given year by what the great and powerful Jack Leggett is able to accomplish?

Like I said in that thread, if the standard is now just to be slightly over .500 and hope to make it to a distant regional, then fine. I don't like it one bit, but I like many will have to live with it. In that case, give Leggett a new contract with a perpetual annual extension so that his contract is basically a five year deal at any point in time but in reality is a lifetime guaranteed contract for as long as he wants to coach or lives. Then folks like me can accept Clemson Baseball on Clemson Baseball's terms and go on about the business of watching (or not) while we wait for football season.
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  #19  
Old 05-27-2015, 01:24 PM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

My two cents (from a non-expert but casual observer):

Thinking of baseball recruiting in football terms doesn't work. Being able to offer 85 scholarships means you can do a good or great job at getting more top heavy - meaning more 4-5 stars and 3 stars than below that. You can build depth and a cushion in talent that way.

With baseball since the rules changed, you still have to fill out your 35 or less players but with even less financial tools. It means that some of the mid-level schools can now compete for a few more of the better players than before. And it means that at Clemson we may be filling our "post 11.7" ranks with talent below what we were able to recruit 4 or 5 years ago. So we cannot be as top heavy in the same sense as football. I'm not concluding for sure, but I wonder if our bullpen problems isn't a good example of that drop off given the challenges and the competition. A player that might have been willing to be in the middle of the roster 5 years ago might now be the star at, say, Coastal Carolina.

The baseball recruiting classes seem to be up and down more now and a lot of that might be showing that JL is still able to get a few top guys but not able to build out the full roster like before. With some of the new things in place, maybe that changes. Especially with some more breathing room on the financial parts.

And regarding games won - I still don't spend the time necessary to really get my head around RPI and the various methods sites execute team rankings. But when I see teams like Cal St Fullerton and Arkansas in the top 25 this week with 35 or so wins, I know there is hope for us without having to insist on 40 wins for starters. Heck, even our first opponent is in some top 25 and they only won 34 at this point. Jack certainly needs to fix some of the really bad inconsistency that has led to midweek loses to teams we should be able to beat without our top pitching. I'm willing to give him more time with some new things to see if he can fix things like that. He may not power pack to a "sure thing 40 wins", but I at least expect/hope for better overall play and constant entry into the regionals. Hosting a regional now and then would be icing on the cake.
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Old 05-27-2015, 02:11 PM
stackems stackems is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBail923 View Post
Those recruiting numbers don't align with what we have heard from those close to the program from this site, which are much more informed than the national websites. We've heard about some of the better classes coming in over the last 5 years. Are we hearing now that the staff wasn't necessarily pleased with the talent level they have been getting?

It sounds more like the talent has been obtained despite the recruiting disadvantages, which is a testament to the staffs hard work. However, there can also be misses, injuries, bad luck, etc along the way that lead to subpar seasons. Getting some of the more talented high school players doesn't seem to be the primary issue at this point.
Apparently I'm not the only one that seems to see that what I hear about new recruits in the offseason and early season is a little different than what I hear once the season plays out.Maybe I'm remembering wrong as I'm certainly not as young as I used to be.
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