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  #41  
Old 05-27-2015, 05:27 PM
Robert Thorne MacRae's Avatar
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBail923 View Post
As mentioned, it's not about the national rankings but moreso about what we read right here about our great classes. Obviously the ones closer to the program (this site) would know more than the national recruiting agencies when it comes to baseball. Acquiring great recruiting classes has never thought to have been an issue during the offseason threads on this board. So the question is, why are we saying the talent isn't here now due to recruiting disadvantages? Would seem more plausible to say there have been misses on talent evaluation, injuries, or lack of development.
Please show me those threads you speak of. We are the only site that actually covers Clemson baseball recruiting. we were very aware of the rankings of the classes the last few years. We have interviews with some of the prospects. We have Insider Reports where we talk about which players that we expected to make a quick impact. We have a one-on-one interview we do in preseason every year with Bradly talking about the incoming class.

Please show me where I said last year's class was a top ten caliber class.
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  #42  
Old 05-27-2015, 05:31 PM
stackems stackems is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

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Originally Posted by mbail923 View Post
as mentioned, it's not about the national rankings but moreso about what we read right here about our great classes. Obviously the ones closer to the program (this site) would know more than the national recruiting agencies when it comes to baseball. Acquiring great recruiting classes has never thought to have been an issue during the offseason threads on this board. So the question is, why are we saying the talent isn't here now due to recruiting disadvantages? Would seem more plausible to say there have been misses on talent evaluation, injuries, or lack of development.
bingo
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  #43  
Old 05-27-2015, 05:32 PM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

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Originally Posted by cubobby View Post
From all these opinion pieces, your site has become an advocate for Jack Leggett. I'm not seeing this anywhere else.
So what? Who cares if no other site is saying this. Also, ask yourself this, how much do those other sites cover baseball or even care to cover baseball? I already know the answer, but I want you to recognize it.

Also, the last time I checked, I can write what I want. It's an opinion piece. This is my opinion. Just because I don't agree with what you or someone else thinks at another site means mine is wrong or uniformed?

Just go back and enjoy those other sites if you don't like what I write because I'm going to keep on writing what I want to write. I write what I feel is right and I don't care if the majority or only "the 5 percent" of fans, as Coach Swinney likes to say, agrees with me or not.
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  #44  
Old 05-27-2015, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Let me ask a question, and I am not trying to flame at all because I don't have the passion and or knowledge as most concerning baseball.

I do however, know a ton about college basketball. Who would have ever thought mid majors would close in and compete with the elites on the hardwood, but by God they have.

Not trying to compare apples and oranges, but is it that just maybe the mid majors have closed the gap in baseball like they have in basketball? Again, not a flame a serious question that popped in my head.
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  #45  
Old 05-27-2015, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

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Originally Posted by Robert Thorne MacRae View Post
Please show me those threads you speak of. We are the only site that actually covers Clemson baseball recruiting. we were very aware of the rankings of the classes the last few years. We have interviews with some of the prospects. We have Insider Reports where we talk about which players that we expected to make a quick impact. We have a one-on-one interview we do in preseason every year with Bradly talking about the incoming class.

Please show me where I said last year's class was a top ten caliber class.
bingo!
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  #46  
Old 05-27-2015, 05:35 PM
Qualk Qualk is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

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Originally Posted by Acheron View Post
I define "The Standard" as it once was as winning in the ballpark of 38-40ish games (total, not just regular season) and hosting a regional. Win the regional we host more years than not. Go to Omaha every 5 or so years.

That is what it used to be in my view.

I want to know what it is now. We have been told by TCI that the 40 games is no longer realistic (I gave some wiggle room there anyway as the number is less important than hosting). So where should it be set. Or is there in fact no standard. Like I said, if that is the case, just give "7" a lifetime contract, be done with any accountability discussion from a wins/losses/achievements standpoint, and let the fanbase deal with Clemson Baseball in those terms.
I boil this conversation down to two questions: Did Clemson baseball reach its expectations this season? Where does the credit or blame rest?

I don't need a number to tell you Clemson didn't meet expectations this season. It's pretty obvious. In fact, in my opinion, it's inarguable the Tigers should have been better. Making it about some arbitrary standard takes away the ability for people to watch with their eyes and think with their brains.

The second question is tougher. As I've said repeatedly, I'm not against being critical of student-athletes. I started doing radio while I was a student. I started writing as a student. In both cases, I expected people to hold me to a high standard, not to coddle me and pretend every one of my failures was the fault of some adult seen as my mentor or coach.

I grade coaches on in-game management and long-term decision-making. Does the lineup make sense? Is the bullpen being utilized effectively and efficiently? Are players held accountable for their respective performances when it makes sense? Do in-game decisions make sense?" (NOTE: This does NOT read "Do in-game decisions work?" because that is an absolutely impossible standard. Good decisions that don't work aren't bad decisions. I do give a pass for bad decisions that work, but that's another story.)

Was the coaching staff perfect in these regards? No. Did I openly question some decisions made from the dugout? Absolutely. Were there things I was frustrated by that became less frustrating after hearing coaches discuss them? Yes, and that's an important factor here.

I won't go into specifics yet, but I don't believe the downturn in wins and losses can be placed solely on the coaches. There are things players are asked to do every time they step onto the field, and as much as people try to place the blame for those things on a coach's shoulders, nobody is holding their hands.

Administration has begun to support the program, but there's some blame there, as well. I'll admit, I'm not as sold as Robert and Will that the key to Clemson's return to the upper echelon nationally is the ACM. Recruiting additional talent will help, but it won't fix everything. The new structure down the first base line will help, but it won't fix everything.

In my opinion, the opportunity for the most dramatic improvement in the program is for talented players to consistently perform the way they are capable of performing. That's not to say coaches don't have a say in that, but I like to give players credit for performing on their own. They don't need coaches breathing down their necks all the time to play well.

You can't fire the players. That cliche is always true. But you don't necessarily have to fire the coach, either. I'm not saying this season shouldn't be frustrating. But frustration doesn't necessarily mean heads should roll, either.
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  #47  
Old 05-27-2015, 05:45 PM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

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Originally Posted by tigerchan View Post
Because we performed so well out of conference and against "weaker league" teams this year right? We were 18-12 OOC. We were 1-4 against Big South teams this season.
And yet we are in a regional. How about the weaker league teams? I'm a Braves fan. If I sweated every loss like this year or even last year,I might be in a ward by now.
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  #48  
Old 05-27-2015, 05:56 PM
MBail923 MBail923 is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

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Originally Posted by Will Vandervort View Post
bingo!
I didn't make any mention of you stating we had a top 10 class last year. Also I was giving you credit for all of your hard work covering baseball, as I would trust your insights before national services. Below is a quote that would make me think the talent is there.

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Old 06-03-2013, 07:39 AM
Robert Thorne MacRae Robert Thorne MacRae is online now
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Default Re: Youth aside, reasons people are upset
Tigers had a top 20 team this year and should have a top ten next year.

Jack's record speaks for itself.

Don't believe you predicted a Super Regional team this year with the youth. Nobody did
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  #49  
Old 05-27-2015, 06:06 PM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Maybe part of the confusion about recruiting class ratings is due to the discrepancy between the classes before and after the draft. I know that last year's class was much better before Chavis and DeCarr signed pro contracts and the 2013 class looked much better before Meadows defected. It's one thing to say in May that there is help on the way and another to say that in August and September. Robert has made a lot of his statements about the baseball classes in the spring of each year and then faithfully reported that those classes have taken hits through the draft.
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  #50  
Old 05-27-2015, 06:10 PM
stackems stackems is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Seems to me this is getting awfully personal so I'll just watch...just disagree with where our program is and where it is heading .
Bottom line----------GO TIGERS!!
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  #51  
Old 05-27-2015, 06:12 PM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cubarb1991 View Post
Let me ask a question, and I am not trying to flame at all because I don't have the passion and or knowledge as most concerning baseball.

I do however, know a ton about college basketball. Who would have ever thought mid majors would close in and compete with the elites on the hardwood, but by God they have.

Not trying to compare apples and oranges, but is it that just maybe the mid majors have closed the gap in baseball like they have in basketball? Again, not a flame a serious question that popped in my head.
Good question, Barb. To answer it, yes they have. The rules where the 11.7 scholarships were limited to 27 players (2010) and 25 percent has to go to each player (2011) were put in place to level the playing field and give mid-majors more of a competitive opportunity. It has helped programs like C of C and Coastal and even Wofford. It has also hurt programs like Clemson that have, and always will, depended on a lot of out of state players. It also took away a lot of the guys, such as a Tyler Colvin, that were offered and came to Clemson on "book money" and then developed into first-round draft picks or All-ACC players. Clemson has had a lot of guys like this through the years.

Is Clemson still more talented than most mid-majors? Of course! But has the playing field been leveled off? Absolutely it has.

Last edited by Will Vandervort; 05-27-2015 at 06:15 PM.
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  #52  
Old 05-27-2015, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

I am of the opinion the JL probably coaches at Clemson next year because IMHO it is unlikely that someone else would do better given the current situation. That said, I don't see the basketball/baseball comparison to be valid. In basketball Clemson wasn't expected to do anything yet almost won the NIT. The baseball team was expected to at least be average/above average. Yes they played well down the stretch but consistency certainly wasn't a strong suite.

To me making a post season tourney (regardless of which one) and playing well in it are 2 different things. Should we go out to CSF and make the championship round then the comparisons can be made. If we make the Superregionals then it is pretty clear that JL will be back next year.
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  #53  
Old 05-27-2015, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qualk View Post
I boil this conversation down to two questions: Did Clemson baseball reach its expectations this season? Where does the credit or blame rest?

I don't need a number to tell you Clemson didn't meet expectations this season. It's pretty obvious. In fact, in my opinion, it's inarguable the Tigers should have been better. Making it about some arbitrary standard takes away the ability for people to watch with their eyes and think with their brains.

The second question is tougher. As I've said repeatedly, I'm not against being critical of student-athletes. I started doing radio while I was a student. I started writing as a student. In both cases, I expected people to hold me to a high standard, not to coddle me and pretend every one of my failures was the fault of some adult seen as my mentor or coach.

I grade coaches on in-game management and long-term decision-making. Does the lineup make sense? Is the bullpen being utilized effectively and efficiently? Are players held accountable for their respective performances when it makes sense? Do in-game decisions make sense?" (NOTE: This does NOT read "Do in-game decisions work?" because that is an absolutely impossible standard. Good decisions that don't work aren't bad decisions. I do give a pass for bad decisions that work, but that's another story.)

Was the coaching staff perfect in these regards? No. Did I openly question some decisions made from the dugout? Absolutely. Were there things I was frustrated by that became less frustrating after hearing coaches discuss them? Yes, and that's an important factor here.

I won't go into specifics yet, but I don't believe the downturn in wins and losses can be placed solely on the coaches. There are things players are asked to do every time they step onto the field, and as much as people try to place the blame for those things on a coach's shoulders, nobody is holding their hands.

Administration has begun to support the program, but there's some blame there, as well. I'll admit, I'm not as sold as Robert and Will that the key to Clemson's return to the upper echelon nationally is the ACM. Recruiting additional talent will help, but it won't fix everything. The new structure down the first base line will help, but it won't fix everything.

In my opinion, the opportunity for the most dramatic improvement in the program is for talented players to consistently perform the way they are capable of performing. That's not to say coaches don't have a say in that, but I like to give players credit for performing on their own. They don't need coaches breathing down their necks all the time to play well.

You can't fire the players. That cliche is always true. But you don't necessarily have to fire the coach, either. I'm not saying this season shouldn't be frustrating. But frustration doesn't necessarily mean heads should roll, either.
Great post Qualk! And for the record, the highlighted area, Robert and I are with you on that as well. It's not going to fix everything, but it is a start.
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  #54  
Old 05-27-2015, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Vandervort View Post
Good question, Barb. To answer it, yes they have. The rules where the 11.7 scholarships were limited to 27 players (2010) and 25 percent has to go to each player (2011) were put in place to level the playing field and give mid-major more of a competitive opportunity. It has helped programs like C of C and Coastal and even Wofford. It has also hurt programs like Clemson that have and always will depend on a lot of out of state players.

Is Clemson still more talented than most mid-majors? Of course! But has the playing field been leveled off? Absolutely it has.

Thanks Will.

Does Duke have more than the Butler? Of course they do...and yet they compete

Last edited by Will Vandervort; 05-27-2015 at 06:25 PM.
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  #55  
Old 05-27-2015, 06:24 PM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

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Originally Posted by cubarb1991 View Post
Thanks Will.

Does Duke have more than the Butler? Of course they do...and yet they compete
Great point!
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  #56  
Old 05-27-2015, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBail923 View Post
I didn't make any mention of you stating we had a top 10 class last year. Also I was giving you credit for all of your hard work covering baseball, as I would trust your insights before national services. Below is a quote that would make me think the talent is there.

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Old 06-03-2013, 07:39 AM
Robert Thorne MacRae Robert Thorne MacRae is online now
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Default Re: Youth aside, reasons people are upset
Tigers had a top 20 team this year and should have a top ten next year.

Jack's record speaks for itself.

Don't believe you predicted a Super Regional team this year with the youth. Nobody did
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The 2012 class was ranked No. 7 in the nation by Perfect game. That was the class I was referring to. The 2013 class ended up ranked No. 23
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  #57  
Old 05-27-2015, 06:34 PM
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Hale McGranahan Hale McGranahan is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

If you polled Clemson fans, I think that the majority would probably be in favor of a change.

Is that a safe estimate?
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  #58  
Old 05-27-2015, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

If you polled Clemson fans, I think that the majority would be in favor of a change.

Is that a safe estimate?
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  #59  
Old 05-27-2015, 06:37 PM
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

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Originally Posted by cubobby View Post
I won't to follow up on his point. You say that the 40 win standard is no longer valid in college baseball. Will/Robert what should the new standards be at Clemson ? Is just sliding by and making the regionals enough? If so you have no standards. My standards would be at least 38 to 40 wins a year and hosting a regional. It also includes winning a conference championship at least once every three years. Could any of you ever see a scenario where you would fire your friend Jack Leggett?
The standard is to go to Omaha. Don't kid yourself. That's all it is. It does not matter if they win 32 games, 43 games or 51 games or if they hosted a regional or a super regional or neither. Getting to Omaha is the standard. They don't care how they get there, they just want to get there.

Will they like to host at home, of course. Would they like to win 40 plus games? Yes. But they don't start the season and say they want to win 40 games this year. No, they start every season with one goal and one goal only -- Omaha.

That is why it is written into the back of their hats.

If you get in the NCAA Tournament, even if you were the last team taken, you have an opportunity to obtain that goal.

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  #60  
Old 05-27-2015, 06:39 PM
Qualk Qualk is offline
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Default Re: Does Clemson have a double standard?

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Originally Posted by Hale McGranahan View Post
If you polled Clemson fans, I think that the majority would be in favor of a change.

Is that a safe estimate?
I wouldn't argue with that. I think it's closer to 50-50 than a lot of people think, but I'd say more are in favor of a change.
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